GERM
00:00:10.240 – 00:00:11.440
Tashi Delek! My name is Germ.

WORM
00:00:11.680 – 00:00:12.560
I’m Worm.

GERM
00:00:12.720 – 00:00:26.080
Welcome to episode 95 of the Germ and Worm travel Health Podcast. Top of Planet Earth Mountaineering reflections with me, Dr. Paul Pottinger. You can also call me Germ. I’m a professor of Infectious Diseases at the University of Washington in Seattle.

WORM
00:00:26.190 – 00:02:19.920
Hi, I’m Dr. Chris Sanford, also known as Worm, Associate Professor in the Departments of Family Medicine and Global Health, also at the University of Washington. And today we’re going to mix it up a little bit.

Actually, today I’m going to interview my friend Paul about his pursuit of the high places as an amateur mountaineer.

Before we start, as always, here is our medical disclaimer. The Germ and Worm podcast is designed to inform, inspire, and entertain. However, you should not use this podcast as clinical care before you travel. Please see a qualified healthcare professional for recommendations specific to you and your itinerary and a reminder to our listeners.

Please contact us with your travel health questions, stories, tips for success, or requests for clarifications about something we say here on the podcast. And of course, if we make a mistake, let us know. Just Visit our website, germandworm.com or email us at germanandworm@gmail.com

Okay, with that, let’s talk about mountaineering. My guest is well known to you all. Dr. Paul Pottinger, aka Germ.

Paul went to medical school at Yale, did medical and chief medical residency at U of Colorado, then came here to the University of Washington for his infectious disease fellowship. He liked it here and he’s been here ever since.He earned a DTM&H, which is Diploma Tropical Medicine and Hygiene degree from the London School of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene. He specializes in antimicrobial stewardship, general infectious disease, tropical medicine, and medical education.

He also serves leadership roles at IDSA, Infectious Diseases Society of America. He’s married to the amazing Julia Quinn, and they have two grown kids.

And for some reason, he likes to climb mountains. Our listeners have asked us about this, so we thought it would be fun to talk about it. And Paul, please start by telling us initially, how did you get interested in this sport?

GERM
00:02:20.970 – 00:05:11.060
Thanks for asking about all this and happy to talk about it.

I have no idea why I do this.

It’s such an aggravating, annoying, although amazing hobby. You know, growing up, I just always liked to be outside. I spent time with my mom in Colorado and California. I just always enjoyed hiking.

As a kid where I went to school, my science teacher was called Lila Bishop, and Lila’s married to Barry Bishop, so he was one of the first Americans to climb Mount Everest. So even as a young kid, as early as the second grade, I was thinking about these tall mountains and what it took to actually do it.

I never thought that would be me, but I was. I was amazed and impressed that people could actually do this. So maybe that’s part of the genesis.

In college, I continued trying to be outside as much as I could. We had this first year outdoor program that I did as an incoming freshman, and then I became a guide for that guiding service.

They were very safety focused, so they got me trained as a wilderness emt. That really fueled my interest in medicine. Honestly, everything good in my life goes back to that experience, interest in medicine.

It’s how I ultimately met my wife, through that program. And of course, yeah, the passion for mountaineering probably started all those years ago.

Like you said, a minute ago, when I was a resident, I was at Colorado, which has the Rockies, the best mountains around. I skied a little bit, but basically I was busy trying to become a good doctor, be a good husband and a good dad.

So I did not do any mountaineering when I was in residency. I was just too damn busy, I have to say.

I chose University of Washington because of my great training opportunities and the mentorship with Wes Van Voors to try to make a new malaria drug. But I do remember flying in the airplane as we were coming into Seattle, I saw the summit of Rainier. We scooted right past it, and I was blown away.

I had no idea that there were mountains that big and that glaciated so close by. So that was actually a huge attraction for me to come to UW as well, just to be near the mountains and, you know, fast forward.

After fellowship was done, when I had my junior faculty spot, I do remember one day sitting in clinical micro rounds, and my friend Doug Black was standing next to me. He’s one of our clinical ID pharmacists. He said, hey, what are you going to do this summer? This is the summer of 2007.

And I said, I don’t know what I’m going to do, but I think I need to climb Rainier. I’ve been looking at that thing for years out my window. What’s it like up there? And he said, oh, I’m a mountaineer. I can take you up there.

And so Doug then took me up. Rainier taught me so much of what I now know about mountaineering.

And he and my other friends, including John lynch and Tom Haun, you know, we became weekend warriors, you know, just exploring the Cascades where the mountains are so beautiful, they’re so challenging. It’s got everything except for the very high altitude. It really is world class opportunities.

And so that was a fun thing and a fun feature for me to, to have living here in Seattle.

WORM
00:05:11.460 – 00:05:27.540
And mountaineering can be hazardous and difficult. And I’ve known you for years and you’re a pretty sane, rational guy.

Why did you choose high altitude mountaineering rather than something that’s more common like backpacking or some of their outdoor pursu.

GERM
00:05:28.050 – 00:07:21.290
Yeah, I guess you don’t know me well at all. I have no idea. The answer is, first of all, I do love all those other things as well. So anything that gets me outside gets me excited.

It could be hiking or backpacking, car camping, skiing, scuba diving, ice climbing. All of it is exciting to me. I just love being away from the fluorescent lights of indoor life.

But let me emphasize, there’s no good reason to do this. There is no good reason, Chris. Right?

It’s the most narcissistic, useless, painful, exhausting, sometimes hazardous, sweaty, smelly, time consuming, expensive pastime. It’s ridiculous. Now that’s true for other things that we do in life too. If somebody’s a big bowler or golfer, that’s also useless.

But this one is more painful. So I get it. I appreciate your question. And the answer is there’s no good reason.

Over the years, it’s interesting, people have asked about this. Somebody once asked Mallory, why are you. Why do you want to climb Everest, the mountain that ultimately killed him? And he quipped, “Because it’s there.” I mean, which was a sassy way of saying, if you have to ask, you’ll never understand, right? Even Hemingway said there’s only three real sports, right? Auto racing, bullfighting, and mountaineering. The rest are just games. What an asshole this guy was. By the way, that’s not how we see it. But the point is, it’s. It is legit. It is serious for me, although it’s useless, it’s fulfilling.

It’s just something that calls to me. And unlike my daily experience, which I love, I have a great life and a great profession. It’s all good, but it’s. How do I say this?

The mountains are vivid. They are just the most intensely crisp, sharp, vivid experience.

Everything about it, the smells, what it feels like, it fulfills me in a way that my daily experience cannot. I can’t do just mountaineering. I am a doctor and a dad and a husband. I mean, that’s my life. But I need this component too.

And I. I can’t really explain why.

WORM
00:07:22.170 – 00:07:25.450
Well, okay, so you climbed Mount Rainier. What came next?

GERM
00:07:26.650 – 00:11:14.490
Yeah, I mean, working up to Rainier was, you know, several years of training, which was all fun and fulfilling. A lot of great mountains here in the Cascades.

And for people who are interested in backcountry life and what that’s like, if you haven’t been to our Cascades, please come. Just do it safely and we’ll talk about that later, I’m sure. But I have nothing but good things to say about that.

But the point is, yeah, Rainier is about 14,000ft tall. And so that was a big challenge for me. I had been about that high previously, but that got me thinking, wow, how much higher can I go?

You know, what else is out there? And around that time, around 2009, I did learn about this so called seven summits quest.

The seven summits refers to the highest mountain on each of the seven continents. And I heard about this and something about that resonated with me. It sounded so elegant, challenging, difficult, time consuming.

But I can wrap my mind around this. I want to stand on top of each of the seven continents. What’s involved with that? Well, I started doing this.

Kilimanjaro is the highest point in Africa. I did that with my brother in 2010. And then in 2011, I was meant to go up Mount Elbrus, which is the highest in Europe.

But there were terrorists who started killing mountaineers because they didn’t like Vladimir Putin. So they had to close the mountain for that season. Instead, I pivoted to Mont Blanc, which is the highest in Western Europe.

That was in the summer of 11. And it was really, that was the experience.

Mont Blanc, when I learned about this whole profession, you’ve probably heard of them, they’re called mountain guides. I’d never even heard of mountain guides. I’ve always been a weekend warrior, self taught doofus, flailing around and in high places.

No, I was lucky to work with a wonderful guide called JR John Race through international mountain guides. He taught me a ton and I just love that because he made it. He was working really hard, but he made it look easy and he made us look good.

And I thought, wow, this is how I’m going to level up and increase my skill set, be safer and also make new friends and do this. And so that’s what I started realizing. If you want to climb these tall mountains, you really should have more skill and knowledge than I had.

And you can do that on the fly as you climb with a trusted guide.

In fact, I went up Denali, which is the highest spot in North America, in May of 12 again with JR and then again with other guides from International Mountain guides Aconcagua in 2013. Aconcagua is the highest mountain in the Western and Southern hemispheres.

That was a big challenge and was a great, successful and really fun expedition. Then I went up Kosciuszko, which is the highest spot in Australia, in August of 2013. Of all these seven summits, that’s the only one I did solo.

And you know, for most people who climb Kosciuszko, it’s a summertime thing. They’ll go in January or something and you just walk up. I was there in August, which is dead of winter. We had, it was almost white out conditions.

The only reason I chose to do it then is because Julie had work and so I was her plus one. So I just added it on. Really fun. A 12 hour trip, much smaller than the rest and, and enjoyable.

And in fact, I then went up Mount Vinson again with International Mountain Guides, January of 2014. That’s the top of Antarctica. What a fun, amazing experience that was too.

I honestly, Chris, that trip, Mount Vinson, was kind of an audition for Mount Everest. Everybody there had either been up it or was gonna go up. And so they were really giving me the hairy eyeball. Can he do this?

And I was doing that for myself too because it’s so cold. You want to see? How do I really perform? It’s not that tall at about 16,000ft, but it’s cold as hell. And, and it was so fun.

And I really got a green light from the guides to do Everest in 2015. I, I then had to get permission from my family, of course.

WORM
00:11:15.210 – 00:11:22.570
And before we talk about Everest, you mentioned your family. You’re married, you have a couple kids. How, how does your family feel about this hobby?

GERM
00:11:23.210 – 00:12:23.150
Yeah, I, I think they’ve come to accept it. I mean, they, they’re super supportive. I think they know it’s important to me and they know that I’ve earned their trust. I always come home safe.

Right. I mean, I’ve been doing that for years. And so they know that I’m very careful.

And if the day isn’t right and the mountain doesn’t want us to stand on top, you just come down, it’s fine. You can always go back. The mountain will always be there. My Phil has always been. You know, I’m not on the social media posting about this.

I’m not a mountain influencer. I just do it for fun. And I think they get that and they know that I work hard and that this is an important way for me to unwind.

So they’ve been extremely supportive of all of this. My lovely wife Julie gets asked all the time, oh, my God, how do you let your husband go overseas to climb mountains?

And she always says, I never worry about him in the mountains. I only worry about him when he’s at home. So she’s very supportive. I think she, she gets me.

But I have to say, at least for me as a happily married person, yeah, I could never do this without them. If they did not support me, this wouldn’t work, that’s for sure.

WORM
00:12:24.350 – 00:12:27.470
All right, what can you tell us about Mount Everest?

GERM
00:12:29.630 – 00:14:48.500
Yeah, Mount Everest. It’s very cold, very tall, very beautiful and, and very difficult. So I was lucky to join an expedition in 2015 via the south side.

That’s the side where you approach from Nepal.

That was with international mountain guides, with Andy Polloczek, Phinjo Sherpa, Justin Merle, Emily Johnston, Mike Hamill, Greg Vernovige, Ang Jangbu Sherpa, and my own Sherpa guide, Pasang Kami. So a whole team of us as Western team members and a mixture of Western and Nepalese guides put together this expedition.

And I was just so lucky that they accepted my check and let me give it a try. The south side of Everest is the way that we went up. You can also approach it from two other sides.

You can come at it up the Kangshung Face or Chinese side. This has been climbed only a handful of times, is incredibly dangerous, and no one does that. The alternative really is to go on the north side.

That’s the Tibetan side, which unfortunately has now been controlled by PRC. Anyway, I chose the south side because that’s where the guides were, because that’s the team that I knew best.

And because generally speaking, if you get in trouble up high, it is easier to get down fast. If you’re on the north side on summit day, it’s much harder to, to do a rescue.

So there’s a lot of reasons why many auspicious and well liked companies will climb from, from the south. You can also do it from the north. I have friends who’ve done both. They’re both okay. But yes, I was very lucky to come from the south side.

I really enjoyed the whole experience because although this was much taller than anything I had done, I wanted to be humble, I wanted to be open minded, but I also wanted to have faith in myself. It’s this weird mix, Chris, where you want to be strong, but you also want to be.

To recognize your own limits, and you simply don’t know if you can do this. It’s literally the highest point on planet Earth. So I had no idea if I could actually do it, but I was happy to try.

And it was really fun to meet all kinds of new friends. That includes Kim Hess, Blake Penson, and many others who were on that trip. You know, we’re still very close friends to this day.

WORM
00:14:49.300 – 00:14:51.940
And tell us, Paul, how did that expedition go?

GERM
00:14:52.980 – 00:19:34.810
Generally speaking, it was. Was really good until it wasn’t. So the really good part was wonderful. Team members very well organized, very safe, and we were healthy.

I actually didn’t get very sick on that particular expedition, respiratory, GI or otherwise, and my skills were fine. I mean, I could have been stronger, for sure. I was working really hard at the hospital before I went on that trip. And so I was feeling that.

That I should have, you know, been training and doing nothing else exclusively for a year. I can’t do that. I’m a doctor. I couldn’t make that happen, but it was fine. The south side of the mountain has a lot of snow.

We actually go through the Khumbu Icefall, which is a relatively unstable. Well, it’s basically a glacier that’s going over a hill.

And so that’s its own barrier, really, the gateway to the great Western Coom, which is a tall, deep valley above the icefall. You then walk up from.

From the top of the icefall at Camp one up to Camp two, through the Coombe, and from there, we were meant to start going up the mountain itself, something called the Lhotse Face, up towards Camp 3 and above. But to answer your question, so that was all good. But then, unfortunately, on the 21st of April, there was a big earthquake. Chris.

It actually was an earthquake that was epicentered closer to Kathmandu, maybe 100 miles away from the mountain. But the. But it was a big one. This was a large quake, and it really was very, very devastating to the entire nation of Nepal.

For us on the mountain, we absolutely felt it. I happened to be at Camp 2. I was taking a nap at high noon, like you do when you’re on vacation in the mountains.

So I was resting after reaching Camp 2, and I thought it was initially just another avalanche. We have avalanches up there all the time. Well, it was an avalanche from all sides, but it was being triggered by an earthquake.

So at Camp 2, we were fine. There were a few orthopedic injuries. I was happy to help a little bit we were okay up there.

It was, paradoxically, Base Camp itself that was devastated by this particular earthquake. So above Base Camp, there was avalanches that fell to the ridge just next to Base Camp, and it displaced a huge amount of air.

So, Chris, what happened was, with that sonic blast, the air that was displaced by falling snow and ice, that air picked up stones which litter the surface of the glacier there, and those stones became missiles. And so, unfortunately, 20 people died in. In Base Camp that day. Awful scene. Open head wounds, open chest wounds.

It was as if a bomb had gone all off, and chaos would have been the obvious thing you would think of. Actually, people responded in a very heroic and organized way.

And the teams all got together to set up field hospitals, to do the triage and to care for these people as best they possibly could. Helicopter evacuation was not possible because of clouds. So they were really on their own.

And for us up at Camp 2, just to listen to this happen over the radio was beyond heartbreaking. I mean, it was just infuriating. I mean, here I am, a doctor, and I want to help, and I just. You can’t get down. It was impossible to go too far.

And also with all the aftershocks, the route was too unstable. So needless to say, we were fine. We actually ended up flying down a few days later by helicopter.

Everybody up high did well, and that expedition was appropriately called off. The entire season was closed.

Everyone who was our guide that year, of Nepalese origin, you know, their homes were damaged, their families were at risk. There was no question that we had to. That we had to call it off. And so I don’t know what to say.

I’m still having difficulty processing that particular experience in all these different mountains. Unfortunately, I have seen people die making mistakes up high. This was different. These were just folks doing absolutely nothing wrong.

And they were just basically hit by a bomb. And so this just felt so much worse, so much more outrageous than anything that I had seen before.

And as a medical doctor, I’ve attended the deaths of many people. This was different. These are young, healthy people who just got blown up. And, you know, I still have nightmares about that, etc.

That’s a whole separate topic, but that was difficult. Having said so, you know, the season was over and it took us a week to get home.

And eventually I went home after having gotten halfway up the mountain with a season that had gone well, and we’ll never know. If there had not been an earthquake, would I have made this summit? I don’t know what to say. It’s an unknowable question.

But I did have it planted in my mind that, that I might be able to just pull this off if only there was no earthquake.

WORM
00:19:35.690 – 00:19:55.580
Now I have to admit, had it been me trying to climb Everest and there was a big earthquake that killed a lot of people and I survived, I might have taken that as a sign from the cosmos that I was not to climb Everest in this lifetime. But you went back the following year. Can you tell us a little bit about that decision process?

GERM
00:19:56.300 – 00:21:27.370
Yeah, I mean, I just, I’m just not as smart as you are. We’ve always known this, Chris. It’s part of the beauty of our friendship. Yeah, it’s, it’s ridiculous. I did make the decision to go back.

I mean, for me, that choice took about two weeks to figure out after I got home. Just the thought that I’d have to. It wasn’t the danger that I was worried about. After all, it’s a once in a hundred year earthquake.

This is not in the brochure. I mean, it’s not going to happen again. The tectonic plates have released their energy. That’s one thing I don’t need to worry about.

It was just the, the expense and the time of the training and the time away from family. It was, it was a daunting thing to think I might have to start from scratch. Because you do. You have to start from scratch.

You have to acclimatize slowly.

One of the beautiful things about the Nepal side is you trek in from Lukla and that trek from Lukla to base camp takes maybe you could do it quickly, but we take about a week to do it gradually getting stronger. I’d have to start that whole process over again and all the time and money.

But yeah, I did choose to do it because I just thought, you know, I’ve been to 22,000ft. It felt doable. I have seen the route. I think I can do this.

And now that I know how hard it is, I can actually try to clear my work schedule and do more training exercise, physical therapy to help with patellofemoral syndrome. You know, once my family said, yes, we get it, you can go back, you have our blessing. Then I really thought, yeah, I’ve got no excuse.

I have to do this again. And I have to do it right away because, you know, the time is now.

WORM
00:21:28.570 – 00:21:36.890
And how did the second expedition go? And I’m curious, did you use supplemental oxygen? And if so, at what altitude did you start using it?

GERM
00:21:37.850 – 00:24:31.830
Yeah, supplemental oxygen. On. Did I use supplemental oxygen? Hell yes. I love my brain and I use it almost every day.

To be clear for folks to understand, the summit of Everest is 29,000ft. And so that’s one third the amount of atmosphere up there. It’s the same percent of oxygen, but just 1/3 of the same percent that you’re used to.

So, yeah, there’s nothing to breathe up there. There are a handful of people in the world who can do this, I think, relatively safely without supplemental oxygen.

I am absolutely not one of those people. I mean, I’m in awe of them. No, I definitely use supplemental oxygen. Up to 4 liters per minute of supplemental flow above high camp on summit day.

So when do we start using that on the summit rotation? We start that at Camp 3, which is about 24,000ft. Getting up to 24,000ft, you’re on your own. You’re breathing what God gave you.

And that’s a good way to force the body to acclimatize and to get your used to this very slow atmospheric pressure. So, yeah, I felt really good about that.

And on the three occasions when my oxygen system had a snafu and temporarily failed on summit day, I mean, I thought I was going to die. There’s no question. I know for a fact that I absolutely had to have supplement auction. Without that, I simply would not have made it.

In general, that next expedition started out great. A lot of similar people, folks that I had known very well from previous expeditions.

And we just had a fun time and it was, generally speaking, easier for me to do. Now I got sick as hell on my pentultimate rotation.

The way we climb this, of course, is you go a little bit up, then you go down, then a little higher and then you go down. These are called rotations, where you push your body and you push the root up.

And so, boy, I caught a terrible case of bronchitis on my second to last rotation. So much coughing, snot, mucus. I broke a couple ribs on my right side, which is incredibly painful.

For those who haven’t had a broken rib, don’t do it. I do not recommend. Only thing worse than climbing Everest is climbing it with a broken rib. I almost did not summit because of this reason.

But I was fortunate to be able to go down to below tree level and breathe in some more humidified air. With a little bit warmer, a little bit more humid.

And after three days of rest and relaxation down there, eating, trying to put on something like body weight again, Yeah, I made a big recovery. My lungs cleared up and I was able to head up again to get up to the summit. And you know, that summit rotation. I don’t know what to tell you.

It was certainly the most difficult physical thing I’ve ever done in my lifetime. And we can talk about that. It wasn’t just the physical toll. It was some of the tragedies that I saw up there as well.

WORM
00:24:32.860 – 00:24:47.260
Well, they call the top of Everest the death zone. And I have a few related questions about that. What exactly is the death zone? Is that an appropriate term? What really dies there?

And then once you’re back lower, how long does it take to recover?

GERM
00:24:48.060 – 00:27:44.140
Yeah, the death zone. I don’t know if that’s made for TV, but it is true that once you get above 8,000 meters, nothing can live up there. I mean, there’s just nothing.

You’ll see a bird fly over once in a while, but there’s just nothing to breathe. And so your body does feast upon itself. You can’t really digest food. I would force down food, but it wasn’t really being digested.

Everything goes into a shutdown mode because you have such low oxygen tension. Turns out oxygen is good, folks. If you’re curious, breathe oxygen. This is good stuff. I’m all about it.

I’m so happy to live at sea level here in Seattle. This rich, delicious atmosphere is great up there. Very little. So they call it the death zone.

Because if you’re up there for a short time without supplemental oxygen, you just. Just cannot survive. So what dies up there are, you know, are the people who. Who are there with this aspiration of trying to go higher.

If you can’t get out of there and get down again, you just won’t survive. And unfortunately, this. This is something that we saw on several occasions. There were people during that rotation who died on the route.

None of them died in front of me. They died above me and below me.

But I was witness to that happening and also to the heroism of people who really put things on the line to try to make a difference.

If you want to learn more about this, there’s an article in the New York Times called deliverance at 27,000ft about the efforts to try to bring home the remains of those. Some of those who had died there, the members of the West Bengal team, for example, just got trapped above us as we were going down.

Another climber called Maria Strydom died just before I started going down. This is horrible. There was a mountain guide who slipped and fell on the Lotsi face and went straight down to the bottom. We saw that happen too.

So this is an awful feature again, and so reminiscent of what we’d been through the previous year of young, healthy people pursuing what they wanted to pursue and not coming home alive and leaving behind, no doubt, people who love them. Families, wives, children. It was a very sobering and difficult thing to face. And so you asked how long it takes to get better from the death zone.

I will let you know when I make it back. I mean, I’m still processing all of that. In fact, my friend Kim Hess and I are writing a memoir about that expedition.

It’s called Shadow of Our Dreams: Climbing Everest Two Steps at a Time. And when that comes out, we’ll let folks here on German Worm Nation know so they can. They can check it out.

I would just say, you know what happens up there. It should be a team effort. In my opinion, mountaineering is the ultimate team Sport, and above 8,000 meters, you all better be on the same team.

And if you’re not, then, unfortunately, people just won’t come home. This is about luck, but it’s also about preparation and humility. And when people don’t prepare and they’re not humble, unfortunately, they just.

They just don’t always come home.

WORM
00:27:45.100 – 00:27:58.860
Well, that sounds phenomenally difficult and challenging and overwhelming to have that much death happen in such close proximity to you. Other than writing the book, how have you processed your experiences there?

GERM
00:27:59.740 – 00:29:36.190
I mean, I’m still working on it. To me, it’s important to stay in the mountains, to go out as much as I can, and just to stay connected with friends and family and. And let time pass.

And, you know, as we’re having this conversation, Chris, we’re recording this late March 2026. So late March. I mean, I’ve got a lot of friends up there. Again, this is now climbing season. The season to climb Everest really is the spring.

That’s important because it’s not too cold yet, and. And the monsoons haven’t come. So all that moist air in Bay of Bengal, that causes monsoon rains down low.

When you get up high, that’s all snow, and so you just can’t go.

There’s only a few days per year, honestly, when you can do this, because that’s when the jet stream is being forced up north by this warm air mass coming up from Bay of Bengal. So this is the time of year when I have friends up there. I’m following them on the socials. I’m thinking about them a lot. And I just.

Every single season. It’s been 10 years now since I summited, right? And Every season I have that same experience. Experience where I just think, this will be the year.

This is the year when Everest will be at peace, when everyone will do everything right. There will be no accidents. There will be no. No mischief. There will be no deaths. And it never happens. I mean, six people died that day.

When I was up on the summit rotation for Everest. That’s average. That’s absolutely an average year for loss of life on the mountain. And it’s just outrageous and heartbreaking.

And I. I wouldn’t say that people shouldn’t do it. I mean, I climbed it. It’s an attractive mountain. It’s super challenging. It is the quest of a lifetime.

I would never tell people not to do it, but I just think they should. They should do it the right way, that’s all.

WORM
00:29:36.910 – 00:29:40.190
And did you ever complete the Seven Summits quest?

GERM
00:29:40.750 – 00:30:12.440
Oh, yeah. No. I did in 2017. The following year, I finally went back to Russia and climbed Mount Elbrus with img, guided by Mike Hamill and Sasha Sak.

And we had a great experience. And, yeah, 2017, 10 years to the day from the first day I sat in microbiology rounds and said, hey, I think I might want to be a mountaineer.

Ten years almost to the day that we actually wrapped up that project. And so seven summits done. The question is, what’s next?

WORM
00:30:13.000 – 00:30:19.690
Yeah, that. That’s my next question. I know even though you’ve done the summits, you’re still an avid mountain climber. What is next?

GERM
00:30:20.970 – 00:31:10.100
Yeah, next. In terms of mountain next. All kinds of. I. I just love being in the mountain. I was just down in Mexico with friends Justin and Ann.

We climbed Orizaba, tallest mountain in Mexico. There’s always quests like this. There’s many mountains out there.

I’m super excited to explore all kinds of areas, especially Latin America, which has such beautiful mountain ranges, friendly people, great cuisine. I think I’m going to do more time in South America. But to be continued, I also like just climbing more, more locally.

Smaller trips where it doesn’t take weeks to be away from home, but I can do things in just a few days. That’s a total blast for me. So I don’t have another specific quest. I think that’s good.

My quest is to spend time with friends and family, to do things safely, to relax and to keep learning about the mountains.

WORM
00:31:10.100 – 00:31:17.180
That’ll be enough for me and Paul. If you were going to give advice to aspiring mountaineers who are listening, what would you suggest?

GERM
00:31:18.940 – 00:35:21.560
Yeah, that’s a nice question. There are listeners out there who are more skillful mountaineers than I am. So I’m not going to preach to anybody.

I will just give you my perspective as an amateur, as a wannabe mountaineer and somebody who’s gotten away with things in the past. So if you’re. They say smart people learn from their mistakes. Very smart people learn from others mistakes. So learn from my mistakes.

Whether you’re an aspiring mountaineer or you’re just mountain curious. Yeah, a few things. First of all, get out there, do it, be outside, but be willing to do it safely. And I just.

I’m really struck by this explosion of the volume of people on the trails, at least here in the Northwest. I think it’s from influencer and social media. Everyone sees how beautiful it is.

I just see so many people outside that is different from the way it was 10 years ago and I think it’s great. I love having people outdoors.

I just want to make sure that they’re prepared and that they are not fooled just because they see somebody on Instagram doing something. Things are not always as they appear.

Please be humble, be careful and assume that these are all hazardous areas and do it, you know, of course, with friends and do it so safely. Mountaineering is a skill and a joy, but it’s a skill. So you need to learn that skill and learn it from a professional.

A reputable guiding firm is always the right way to go.

And if you’re looking for guides, you should find out if they’re certified by the American Mountain Guide Association, AMGA or their international equipment called the ifmga. That’s one way to tell that you’ve got a legit guide, but you also just need to vibe with that person.

If you hire somebody to go for a day, see if you like them. Do you guys get along? I assure you you will. Every mountain guide I know, they’re just wonderful people.

They love what they do and they should really enjoy getting people up there. They’re not great mountain climbers only, they’re great mountain guides.

And so if you’re with a great mountain guide, I think you will have a great experience. That can be expensive for some of our listeners, but I honestly think that can be worth it.

Now here in Seattle we have a wonderful resource called the Mountain. Mountaineers is really a mountain school and support center. It’s an excellent volunteer run association.

Check out the Mountaineers if you’re a Northwest person. I did not go with the Mountaineers because my schedule just didn’t vibe with what they were doing.

I needed something more customized nevertheless, whether it’s mountaineers or a similar outfit in your city, you can probably start connecting with people who, who know what their doing. So that’s one thing. And the last thing I would say is, well, really three pearls of wisdom. Pay your dues, you know, do the work.

Do not jump straight to Mount Everest. Work up to it. Whatever your quest is going to be, work up to it in a rational way and do the work. And it should be enjoy, enjoyable and fun.

Often the training that I do for an expedition is as much fun or more than the expedition itself. So pay your dues. Number two for the tall mountains, certainly anything above 8,000 meters. Pay your way. Mountaineering is a dirtbagger sport.

You do not, doesn’t matter what you look like, what you smell like, what you dress like. It’s very democratic. It’s accessible to everybody. That’s what I love about it. But not these tall mountains. Not above 8,000 meters.

You have to go with an expensive qualified guide. It will cost you money.

It is worth it because if you try to shortcut it on these tall mountains, I just, I have to tell you, I’ve seen it time and again where people go with someone who’s cut rate and they get. Well, the old saying, Chris, you get what you pay for. So I’m worried about that. And finally, pay respect just to be humble.

Pay respect to the people who’ve come before you, who did not go home, people who are better mountaineers than you will ever hope to be, who died on this mountain where you are today because of a moment of bad judgment or because of bad luck. I think recognizing that you’re there because of your predecessors and because of the teammates who are there with you today, respect that process.

Respect the people who do this. And if you do that, you’ll stay humble about your own skills.

That will make it more enjoyable and it’ll definitely make it more of a, of a safe experience.

WORM
00:35:22.360 – 00:35:31.800
Well, Paul, thank you so much. It’s always amazing for me to hear about your mountaineering experiences and I imagine some of this is a little difficult for you to talk about.

GERM
00:35:33.530 – 00:35:53.210
It is, but it’s, but it’s good. I mean, so thanks for asking about this. I appreciate the invitation. It actually helps me to process things. I love the mountains.

It’s such an amazing experience.

And if people do it safely, if I can help people get out there maybe and do something they wouldn’t otherwise do, but to do it in the right way, that makes me feel really good about this. So thanks, Chris.

WORM
00:35:53.370 – 00:35:54.410
Hey, thank you.

GERM
00:36:09.850 – 00:36:38.650
Everyone. That’s a wrap for episode 95 of Germ and Worm. It was my pleasure to talk with Chris about this today. Thanks for that conversation to our listeners.

As always, we welcome your questions on travel health.

Please send them to us or Tips for success Suggested corrections We’d love to hear from hear from you germandworm gmail.com or visit us online germandworm.com if you’ve enjoyed the episode, please subscribe, rate us favorably on your device and spread the word with friends, family and on the socials. That’s a free way to support this podcast. I’m Germ.

WORM
00:36:38.890 – 00:36:42.370
I’m Worm. It’s a big planet. See it in good health and we.

GERM
00:36:42.370 – 00:37:02.660
Look forward to seeing you next time.

This podcast is designed to inform, inspire and entertain, but it does not establish a doctor patient relationship and so it should replace your conversation with a qualified healthcare professional. Please see one before your next adventure. The opinions in this podcast are Dr. Sanford’s and Dr. Pottinger’s alone and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the University of Washington or UW Medicine.