GERM
00:00:00.160 – 00:00:11.440
Salam alikoum! My name is Germ.

WORM
00:00:11.520 – 00:00:12.400
I’m Worm.

GERM
00:00:12.640 – 00:00:28.080
Welcome to the Germ and Worm Travel Health Podcast, Episode 96: Berserk Llama Syndrome–How to make sure it never happens to you! It’s a big planet. See it in good health.

I’m Dr. Paul Pottinger, also called Germ. I’m a Professor of Infectious Diseases at the University of Washington in Seattle.

WORM
00:00:28.420 – 00:00:36.100
I’m Dr. Chris Sanford, also known as Worm, Associate Professor in the Departments of Family Medicine and Global Health, also at the University of Washington.

GERM
00:00:36.340 – 00:01:48.970
Okay, so here at Germ & Worm we answer questions from our listeners across the country and around the world about how to stay safe and healthy when they travel. And over time, Chris, we have received questions from listeners all around this big beautiful planet of ours about how they might interact safely and ethically with other beasts, beasts of burden, non human animals, including: Is it safe and ethical to ride an elephant in Thailand… ride a camel in Morocco… walk with llamas in Joshua tree… swim with the manatees in Florida… balloon in Turkey… take ayahuasca when we go to Peru… go on safari in Africa? These and many more questions. We love them and we’re going to talk all about them, our personal experiences and our opinions.

We’re happy to talk about these questions and more.

Just reach out to us with your questions and your stories and tips for success or request for clarification on something you’ve heard on a previous episode and and please binge our content. Just Visit us online germandworm.com or send us an email germandworm@gmail.com we would love to hear from you before we jump in our medical disclaimer.

This podcast is designed to inform, inspire and entertain, but you should not use this podcast as clinical care before you travel. Please see a qualified healthcare professional for recommendations specific to you and your itinerary.

WORM
00:01:49.850 – 00:02:21.270
Now, I’ve engaged in several of these activities and some I haven’t. And we’ll talk about those. And some of the ones that I did, I would do again.

And some for either reasons of safety or ethics, I would not do so specifically, I did with my wife on our honeymoon ride elephants in Thailand. We went on a camel ride in Morocco fairly recently and I have walked with llamas in Joshua Tree.

I have not swum with manatees and I have not taken ayahuasca in Peru. What about you Paul?

GERM
00:02:21.670 – 00:02:59.490
Never riden an elephant. Never even been to Morocco, walked with llamas in Joshua Tree. I got to tell you, I’ve never been to Joshua Tree either.Even though it’s really at the top of my list. However, I have pined and dreamt of having the llamas be my beast of burden when I’m here in the Olympic national park and such. But no, I haven’t actually partaken of that. Never swam with the manatees in Florida. I mean, at least not that I knew. Maybe they were in there lurking around, but that wasn’t a focus for me. Ballooning in Turkey, no, but I have ballooned in Mexico, near Teotihuacan, Ayahuasca. Never dropped ayahuasca, Peru or elsewhere. But yes, I do love going on safari, interacting with animals in that context. Talk about it.

WORM
00:03:00.210 – 00:04:20.910
Maybe let’s talk about elephants first. And I have to admit this is one that I would not do again, knowing what I know now.

So there’s these places all over Southeast Asia, maybe most of them are in Thailand, and you go and you pay a little money and you get on top of an elephant and you ride and it feels very international and exotic and it’s fun. So first, is it safe? Which I think is the lesser of the two questions. Not really. I don’t.

I wasn’t able to find any statistics on this, but you’re way the heck up there, much higher than when you’re on a horse and you’re not that securely fastened to where you are. And so if you fell, you could certainly break your shoulder or something else. Also, if this thing rolled on you, you would do very poorly.

So is it safe? I don’t have stats, but not necessarily. Nothing bad happened to me and my wife.

The bigger issue, I think, is that when I look at sites like PETA, they recommend against elephant riding pretty much universally as a general rule. Many of these elephants are not treated well. They are sort of beaten into submission. They’re whacked with sharp sticks to get them to behave.

And so I don’t think I would do this again. I don’t think I would recommend this. These things obviously are driven by the tourist dollar.

If tourists didn’t ride them, these elephants would stop being mistreated like this. So I think this one I’m going to give a recommendation of a thumbs down on.

GERM
00:04:21.150 – 00:06:14.080
It’s a shame because there’s an opportun for it to be done well and in a way that’s respectful and sustainable and is not tortured. To these animals, I’m saying they’re being tortured. You folks out there in radio land haven’t seen Chris. He’s not that heavy.

I promise you, the elephant that you rode, you did not harm him directly. The question is about the industry and the overall ethos. And it’s a. It’s a subtle and nuanced response that I appreciate.

There are so many other ways that we can support elephants. It seems to me the best way is to stop cutting down the place where they’re supposed to live and give them protection from being shot. Shot.

In the African context, this is generally about, you know, avoiding those elephant to human interactions. You don’t have to ride an African elephant, by the way. Please don’t. They’re not built for that. They’re not ready for it.

But there are these conflicts, right, between farmers, ranchers and the elephants that come just to eat crops because they’re hungry. I can’t blame them. There’s also these relatively novel ways. You mentioned Thailand. We may have talked about this here on German Worm.

I can’t remember. There’s a place called Black Ivory. Black Ivory Coffee.

What you do is you feed coffee beans to the elephants, then you collect their poop after they have digested the beans, matured them, mellowed them, and out comes this black nectar. And that’s supposed to be some of the tastiest coffee in the world, $2,000 per kilogram black Ivory coffee.

Now, I’ve never tasted it, but that’s a way.

The reason I like this idea is, number one, in terms of infectious disease, this seems very unlikely to harm you because coffees have to be dried out and then you put them through hot water. I’m not aware of anybody getting sick this way.

Number two, just the poetic justice that we’re eating their crap and we’re literally drinking what they’re doing to us. Supposedly, the elephants are not really addicted to the caffeine. These doses are so small that they don’t get a withdrawal headache.

But that might be something to look at. The point is, for those of you out there who have tried Black Ivory Coffee, please let us know.

The point is, there may be other creative ways to interact with elephants that do not require riding them on the back.

WORM
00:06:14.240 – 00:06:26.120
Now, here’s a research question for you, Paul. It’s been shown in humans that drinking coffee reduces your risk of Alzheimer’s.

Are elephants who are put through this process at lower risk of dementia in their senior years?

GERM
00:06:26.360 – 00:06:33.880
I always say the elephant never forgets. And maybe this is a way for us to partake of their great memory. I don’t know, but I do love it.

WORM
00:06:36.520 – 00:07:30.100
All right, moving on to camels. Super fun. Did this in the desert, southern Morocco. And I’m going to give a little Bit of a more nuanced opinion here. PETA is slightly against it.

They say don’t do it. Many of these animals are mistreated and that’s true. Now one caveat is that camels evolve to walk on soft surfaces such as sand.

So if you’re going to do it, do it in a place like the desert where it’s soft. Don’t do it in a place. I’ve been like in the Atlas Mountains and seen, oh, you can ride at the side of the road on asphalt on a camel.

That really hurts their feet. I think they suffer in that kind of setting. So if you’re going to do it, do it in the desert. And the second caveat is look at the camels first.

If they look kind of content and well nourished, then maybe it’s reasonable. But if they’re getting beat, if they’re skinny, they’re malnourished, otherwise poorly treated, then I recommend you don’t support that business.

GERM
00:07:31.060 – 00:08:22.030
Yeah, I love that idea. You know, these, remember camels are not hoofed mammals, right? They’re tylopods, they’re soft footed mammals. That’s what tylopodia means.

And so I think the padded foot of a camel, they evolved in the desert. That’s where they’re, that’s where they’re meant to be. And there has been an intimate relationship between humans and camels for a long time.

They are one of these semi domesticated species and I think they’d be happy to be without, but they actually do well with us if we treat them well. So I think there’s a huge difference between riding a camel on the sand that it’s evolved to. And Mike east mentioned asphalt.

I mean, it’s just a terrible idea. Hot as hell. It’s got to be painful for them.

So thanks to our listeners for doing this and please look out for the spitting because man, they love to spit. At least that’s what I’m told.

If you get around a spitting camel that maybe they’re spitting mad, that tells you that that’s a camel that probably should be left alone. But did you get spat upon by camels when you were over there?

WORM
00:08:22.420 – 00:08:26.220
Nope, nope. We had a, what appeared to be a very contented, amiable camel.

GERM
00:08:26.220 – 00:08:27.460
Love it, love it.

WORM
00:08:34.020 – 00:09:15.860
Now here’s one that’s a little different. It’s not riding on an animal riding on the air. A lot of people when they’re in Cappadocia will take a balloon ride. And I did this with my wife.

It was A little touristy about in this large field. About 50 balloons took off at once, but it was super fun. Now is this safe again?

I couldn’t find good Moroccan or other Turkish statistics, but I think it’s generally safe. I think the fatality rate is not zero, but it’s pretty low.

I did read, read that at least in Turkey that the pilots of the balloons have to undergo fairly extensive training and they have to have a commercial pilot license. So that suggests at least that it’s regulated. And I’m not seeing a lot of anecdotes about crashes and deaths.

GERM
00:09:16.990 – 00:10:44.310
Yeah, I think that’s right. I’ve not been to Cappadocia, although it’s so beautiful. That’s on my list for sure. I would definitely do this and.

But when we were in Mexico City recently, we did spend a morning at Teotihuacan where you can ride, get in the pre dawn light, get into a very large. Honestly, I think there were a dozen of us in the basket of this huge, huge balloon, hot air balloon.

You go up and you, well, you cruise over the ruins of this beautiful ancient civilization. It was amazing. I was there with friends with my son and we just had a great, great. It felt sketchy as hell.

When we were coming in for a landing, I got to tell you, you know, you were just skirting right above power lines, trees. But, but it wasn’t. They were actually. This is not my first time in a hot air balloon. I could tell they actually knew exactly what they were doing.

They were able to ride the air currents and direct things around. You have a certain amount of control. There is no rudder, there is no engine, there is no propeller. You’re just basically at the mercy of the winds.

But it’s also the excellence of your guides. So this was a place that we had found through a vetting process, did a little bit of research to find the one that seemed us to be the most legit.

I think it’s hard to vet a hot air balloon company. Just go with something that seems to be mainstream.

And if you have that handcrafted advice of someone who’s had a good experience, I think it can also help you to stay safe. I could tell immediately as they were putting these balloons up. Yep, this is a business. This is all these people do.

They are riding with us, multiple crew members. It’s going to be a safe experience. And it was, and it was amazing. I do recommend.

WORM
00:10:44.630 – 00:11:05.250
Yeah. Similarly, I thought that our landing might be somewhat tumultuous given that there’s no, you know, steering wheel on this thing, and I imagine.

Imagine kind of the balloon basket hitting the ground and turning sideways and spilling us out. But in fact, they threw ropes down, a guy pulled us to the back of a truck on which we landed. Exactly.

So it very much felt like a controlled, safe experience.

GERM
00:11:07.730 – 00:11:26.430
All right, well, Chris, let me ask you this. A few minutes ago, you mentioned something about camels. There’s another twilipode we could talk about. Tell me a little bit about the llamas.

Have you walked with llamas in Joshua Tree? And the title of this whole episode, the Berserk Llama Syndrome or BLS mess. It’s one that’s new to me as well. What the hell is that about?

WORM
00:11:27.070 – 00:13:23.120
Yes. So this was during COVID my wife and I spent a month in Joshua Tree, and there’s this subset of Airbnb called airbnb Experiences.

I don’t know if you’re familiar with that, but basically it’s things like pay money to a guy and go on a tour of a city for half a day or a culinary tour or learn how to make a certain craft. And during COVID most of these shut down. But we were bored. And I saw this thing in airbnb Experience that said walk with llamas.

You pay a little money, and actually the business was in Yucca Valley, which is adjacent to Joshua Tree, and you get to spend half a day at this llama farm and hang out with llamas and walk with them. And actually, it was kind of brilliant of the people who own the llamas because they have to be walked every day.

It was kind of a Tom Sawyer in the fence thing. So what better thing to do than to get tourists to pay to walk your llama?

So we went to this small farm, met this charming woman, hung out with her llamas, and when you’re really bored, actually, walking with a llama is more entertaining than you think it might be. We learned how to approach it from one particular side, how to hold the bridle, how to walk with it. We fed it a bit. It was super fun.

Now, llamas, if you treat them well, tend to be very nice, friendly animals. But they really can spit, just like camels. And not only can they spit, but the spit is not mouth spit.

It’s got some mixture of stomach acid in it, and they do it as a defense, and they can hit you in the eye. They’ve developed this as a defense against predators.

So if you approach a llama and it looks unhappy, which can be difficult to tell With a llama, back away. Don’t do anything it doesn’t want you to do.

And there’s even this thing called, and I found this in the literature, berserk llama syndrome, where they just go nuts, they kick, they spit, they try to hurt you. This doesn’t happen randomly and it doesn’t happen often, but it’s usually when they’re mistreated.

So if you whack it with a stick because you want it to do something, it may kick you or otherwise go berserk.

GERM
00:13:23.910 – 00:15:05.680
Holy smokes. I mean, doing this podcast is the most fun thing. I learn something every day. BLS.

There’s another TLA3 letter abbreviation in the medicine world that is new to me. I didn’t know that and I think I have come across this before.

I don’t know if I mentioned this to you, Chris, but I have the pleasure to have worked with a patient many years ago who came to us with a very unusual presentation. This is a fungal infection of their skull and, and a hard one to treat. In fact, when we see fungus in the bone, we usually cut out the bone.

Well, you can’t cut out the skull. So this is someone who needed a very long course of very difficult to take medications.

And the question, of course is how did the fungus get into their skull?

And so, in all candor, I don’t know for sure, but we do in infectious diseases, sit with our patients, get to know them and ask them all the questions about exposures and the environment, animals. And it came out that, yeah, this person had been, had been assaulted by a llama.

Trying to wrangle a llama on behalf of a friend not too far from where we are here in Seattle. The llama wasn’t having it. Llama didn’t want to come home, llama ran away, llama did not want to come back.

And when he went to try to convince it and wrangle it back towards the house, it reared up and kicked him in the skull. And a few years later, out came this diagnosis.

So, bls, I have a feeling that I didn’t even know I was dealing with bls, but I think that’s what happened in this person’s case. This is a real thing, folks. Do not mess with these, with these llamas.

The research I have done in prep for this particular podcast, it may be that these alpacas or llamas are over, over exposed to humans when they’re young. They’re too much bottle feeding and not enough wild time. It’s not clear. I Would just say, if it’s not your llama, please, please leave it alone.

WORM
00:15:05.680 – 00:15:07.720
Yeah, Never piss off a large animal.

GERM
00:15:08.120 – 00:15:11.800
That’s true for humans and otherwise. I think that’s a good idea.

WORM
00:15:13.320 – 00:15:26.900
Well, here, Paul, what about. Have you ever seen a video? I’ve seen several of these and everyone makes me sh.

Tourists both from the US and international at a park like Yellowstone approaching a bison on foot to get a good photo.

GERM
00:15:26.980 – 00:17:31.629
This. Every year. Every year this happens.

And it’s just for folks who don’t live here in the United States, we have a spectacular national park called Yellowstone National Park. What does it mean by Yellowstone? This is the world’s biggest volcano. It’s a subterranean volcano.

What will probably take us out if we don’t nuke ourselves will be this volcano coming back to life. And so there’s a lot of sulfur and beautiful formations of minerals coming up bubbling up from under the ground. Thus the name Yellowstone.

And it’s a beautiful place and I hope that everyone visits Yellowstone. It is amazing when you do, do not approach the bison. The bison sometimes also called a buffalo, but bison is the proper name.

As you said, they’re wild animals and they’re grazers. Right. I mean, they do roam around in the, in the wild and just eat grass and reproduce and that’s it.

And if we would just leave them alone, they would never have any interest at all in killing us.

What happened, of course, is that in antiquity, here in what we now call the United States, there was a huge drive to hunt these down for their beautiful pelts, their skins. And so the numbers of bison that are currently roaming our backcountry in the United States is a tiny scintilla of what it used to be.

They were giant, peaceful beasts until we basically hunted them almost out of existence. There are a few left. Yellowstone is a place where they are supposed to be protected because it is a national park.

And yet there are roads that go through this park. That’s fine. I’ve been on those roads. It’s all good. Just stay in your damn car. Do not get out of the car. Do not approach them.

There is no selfie opportunity. I’ve seen people putting their kids to ride on the back of a bison or pose next to them.

And yes, indeed, every single year, so it seems there are people injured, in some cases fatally so, being attacked by a bison. So these are wild animals. Leave them alone. Take your pictures and be grateful that you saw them and smelled them and then just drive on.

This one’s easy, Chris. There is no subtlety there’s no. They are, they are not to be touched. They’re not semi domesticated.

I just hope that that’s clear to everybody and if you have difference of opinion or you want to talk about it, shoot us an email. But otherwise, for God’s sakes, don’t ride a bison.

WORM
00:17:33.549 – 00:17:38.189
And speaking of large herbivores, Paul, have you ever gone swimming with manatees?

GERM
00:17:38.429 – 00:19:55.690
Not that I know of. I mean, maybe it happened once when I was swimming in Florida and one was out there, but no, not intentionally.

So the manatee, it’s related to the dugong, so called sea cow. These are freshwater mammals that have evolved, come back into the water from land like whales did, I suppose, but they look more mammal like.

It’s almost like a, almost like a walrus, right, Chris? But it’s got a slightly different tail. It’s adapted not to the meat that the walrus eats, but to plants. They like to eat plants.

They’re giant, totally gentle herbivores. They’re very slow moving, absolutely adorable, and just completely vulnerable to human interaction.

So the classic thing is somebody’s driving a powerboat and the propeller, that powerboat slices through the back of these poor manatees. Obviously that can lead to spinal injury. Deformation can be fatal.

So there’s a whole bunch of really amazing human beings down in Florida who are working hard to try to rescue these injured manatees and give them a place of respite and recovery. And it’s incredible work that they do. A manatee that may be too injured to sustain itself in the wild, well, they can find sanctuary in these places.

That’s where I would suggest people, if you really want to see a manatee, please don’t go out and try to swim with them in the wild. Go to a sanctuary, support them financially and, you know, spread the gospel that where you drive your boat, there may be a manatee beneath.

Now I don’t think that they’re directly dangerous, although, dag gum, they are huge. And I see like you get on the wrong side of a manatee, you’ve got, that’s, that’s karmic justice.

If ever there was like you got to do something really bad to get them upset. I could imagine they could be dangerous, but I have not heard of that. They’re almost always the victim of human stupidity or mal judgment.

Sometimes it’s grotesque.

I remember the person who was our, who is currently our president and was once before, in the previous time, the second or third time they ran for president, somebody carved that person’s name in the back of a manatee down in Florida, you can go to the Internet, Just type in the word Florida man, and you’ll find all kinds of things that Florida man does. So. So, yeah, they have been victimized by us for political gain, et cetera. They don’t produce any kind of resource like the oil of a sperm whale.

You can’t turn them into perfume. You don’t eat them. Just leave them the hell alone and bask in their amazing majestic glory.

WORM
00:19:56.090 – 00:20:35.590
Yeah, I’ve never gone swimming with manatees either. I did see a couple recently in Belize on the New river when I was taking a trip to see the myocyte of laminae.

I do see that when I research this a little. There are some guidelines to treat these things.

Well, one is if you do observe them, keep a distance, don’t try to touch them, don’t try to swim adjacent to it. Don’t try to get a good photo with your arm around it. Also, give them some rest periods. So should you do this? I don’t know. I would lean against it.

I like Paul’s idea of observing them at a sanctuary kind of place. I think I would give this a thumbs down.

GERM
00:20:35.750 – 00:21:02.320
I mean, if you see one, stop the motor. You know, just slowly back away, but just give them a little bit of space.

It feels very similar guidelines to what we have here in the northwest, isn’t it, Chris? If you are here in Puget Sound and you come across a pod of orcas, we are meant to stay at least a kilometer away from them.

And if, let’s say you’re kayaking and they come up right around you, just stop, for God’s sakes, don’t move. And let them gradually move away. It’s about giving them peace and dignity and a little bit of. A little bit of respect.

WORM
00:21:06.950 – 00:22:13.730
Now, related topic, Both Paul and I taught in East Africa for over a decade, and I’ve made many trips to several countries in East Africa. And I’ve been on a number of safaris.

And I read a article recently and it talked about people being killed by lions in Africa, Some in East Africa, some in South Africa. And actually it was only four cases. But what struck me was that three out of the four victims were approaching the lions on foot as if to pet them.

And my point here is that the safaris are wonderful. I think that the money from the tourists helps keep the parks free of development. So I think this is a positive effect of tourism.

But stay in the dam cruiser. If a lion sees you, well, first, if you see it, you see this Wonderful natural animal in repose. When it sees you, it sees a cheeseburger.

And so when the guide stays in the van, you stay in the van. If the guide gets out, it’s probably safe to get out. The guides tend to know where the lions eat and where they don’t.

But my key point on safaris is, yeah, they’re wonderful. Go for it. But don’t get out of the van if there’s something large with big teeth in sight.

GERM
00:22:14.289 – 00:25:07.890
Especially if that large thing happens to be an herbivore called the Cape buffalo, By far the deadliest animal. Look, it’s exactly correct. And I’m just stunned. I would love to see those articles.

I am floored that anybody in the modern context would be killed by a lion. I mean, they. Look, I don’t have that much experience being on safari in East Africa, but it’s a fascinating, transformational, amazing experience.

And if you do it right, as you said, Chris, respectful of the rules, doing it in a place where you’re meant to be on safari, it’s wonderful because you’re supporting the protection of that environment and those animals. I have never heard of anybody being even approached by these animals. When you’re in the vehicle, you’re invisible. They do not know that you’re there.

And I have taken boy for the last safari, we were in Ol Pejeta and then down in Mara North. These are two conservancies in Kenya. Me, wife, kids, the best, best vacation of all time. It was so, so great. And I have. There were cases where the.

The lions came so close that I literally couldn’t use my telephoto lens because I’d just be looking at them like that Jurassic park thing, right in the eyeball, like there was nothing. They were. They don’t care that you’re there. They weren’t there to harass us. They weren’t chewing on the tires.

They were just walking by, you know, stalking prey. I was like, we are the prey. And these are open vehicles where you could, if you wanted to, you could reach out and touch them. Don’t do this.

But the point is, they had no interest in harassing us. You would have to go out of your way to get into trouble with lions.

And I was fascinated to see that in some of these areas, you know, there were Maasai communities within the conservancy. Kids walking to and from school alone, unarmed.

They would often have one person with a stick, just a stick, small stick, not a big shalele, just a little stick. And that way, if anything approached Them, they could tap it on the nose to keep it away, which never ever happened.

So I think in antiquity times were different. I think more recently this gets back to that idea of the bison being approached by somebody or getting thwacked by a berserk llama.

You’d have to really push these animals hard to make them upset with you. And it’s true. I think the most deadly animals over there are the Cape buffalo, then you know, the hippopotamus, in some cases elephants.

If they’re upset, they can do that too. It’s usually not even the carnivores, it’s these herbivores that are just upset that you’re harassing them.

Look, I wouldn’t swim in the Mara river and get eaten by a crocodile. This happens. But otherwise, basically, if you’re on land and following the rules, you can have an amazing experience.

I really strongly recommend that. I’m thinking about Kenya, I’m thinking about Tanzania, but also Uganda. Other of course, people go to South Africa, to Kruger.

There’s many world class amazing places to go. They are few and far between because we have destroyed and enclosed all of the land that’s around there.

Please check this out people and if you have a good safari experience, let us know. I would be so grateful to see those pictures.

WORM
00:25:09.970 – 00:26:28.930
Another good place, wildlife viewing place in Africa my wife and I went to. There’s this island referred to locally as Chimpanzee Island.

It’s in Lake Victoria and it actually it’s about 100 acres and it’s a place of refuge for chimpanzees that have been rescued that were with circuses. And it’s maybe 100 chimpanzees but they’re very much is a demarcation.

They have about 95% of the land for chimpanzees and about 5% of the land for people. And these things are super strong. Some of them have been maltreated.

I’ve read that a chimpanzee strength is about six fold what an adult male strength is in terms of arm strength. And they can literally kill you if they’re in a bad mood.

So it was fascinating to go there and watch them be fed and catch food in the air as it was thrown to them. But again, you don’t go into their side of the island and start petting the chimpanzees. That could lead to something very bad indeed.

So see the animals as an extreme example of the downside of fraternizing with large animals. There’s a Werner Erzog movie And grizzly man. Grizzly man. Thank you. And this crazy American hung out with grizzly bears in Alaska every year.

In the 13th year, they ate him and his girlfriend. So again, I love seeing the big animals, but you are not their close buddy and you shouldn’t get too close to them.

GERM
00:26:29.250 – 00:26:43.410
Yeah, I mean, exactly right. Chris, there’s this experience that’s evocative of the chimpanzee thing you mentioned a moment ago. The gorillas in Rwanda, for example, in Congo.

Is that something that you’ve done and is that something that you might recommend?

WORM
00:26:44.210 – 00:27:25.070
No. And yes. I’m partially ignorant about it. I’ve never done it. I’ve been super curious and I should have done it.

Since I’ve been to Uganda so many times I talked to a number of people who’ve done it and it sounds like it’s done pretty well. It’s expensive. They go in small groups. They are supposed at least to keep a distance from the gorillas.

And of course you don’t go if you have anything like a head cold because some infections like influenza could be spread to the gorillas. But my understanding is that a benefit is that because of the money generated by tourism, the conservation in that area is fairly robust.

So I think the damage to the gorillas is minimal. You’re just kind of bugging their privacy. Privacy. However, I am curious to hear what you think, Paul.

GERM
00:27:25.070 – 00:27:48.390
I had the same. I have not yet done it. It’s on my list. And I have had. I’ve heard the same thing from people who’ve gone.

That it’s transformational and that it is extraordinarily well regulated. This is not something that you can or certainly would or should do by yourself.

You’re there with a guide, armed, trained guide, and you follow the rules and can have a great experience. It should not be considered a high risk thing if it is done properly.

WORM
00:27:55.030 – 00:28:16.340
Right. Right now, a little bit of a veer in topic, but some people go to South America to do ayahuasca.

There are a lot of ayahuasca retreats and from my reading, some of them are well regulated and some of them are a little more Yahoo. Paul, what’s your thought on going to Peru or elsewhere in Latin America and going to a retreat and taking ayahuasca?

GERM
00:28:16.340 – 00:30:46.570
I have not done so. I have no personal experience to talk to.

I have taken care of people who have come back from that experience with a complication of infectious disease. It could be any mosquito borne illus.

But as it happens, it’s almost always something called Cutaneous leishmaniasis, where you’re bitten by a blood sucking sandfly, you end up with wounds on your skin. How is that related to ayahuasca? I think it’s just that when people do this, they get stoned.

I mean, it’s meant to be there for its spiritual advancement and enlightenment. What actually happens.

You may have that experience, but son of a gun, if you’re not protecting yourself from being bitten by flies and mosquitoes, you’re going to come back with fill in the blank. Malaria, yellow fever, leishmaniasis.

So my point is it’s not only the concern for safety around what you’re taking, this relatively poisonous natural product, not taking too much, but also and not being preyed upon when you’re stoned and out of your mind, right? You have to do it with, with a guide who knows exactly what they’re doing. And I would please, please, please do it with friends. Don’t go alone.

But also the fact that you should take care of yourself when you’re out of it, eating, drinking, hydrating, peeing, pooping, and not getting bitten alive by all these mosquitoes.

So this is one that I think is super fascinating because there are some disorders, psychiatric disorders, for example, that really seem to respond well to this. But even I think if you, if it’s done properly, it’s not guaranteed to work.

And there are the potential for psychiatric side effects, much less just the issue of, well, doing drugs when you’re south of the border. So I think it’s something that people should really look into carefully. It’s not for everybody.

And if you’re thinking about doing it, one way to start, honestly, Chris, would be to talk with a psychiatrist or mental health professional, including a therapist, whoever that person is working with. Is this going to be right for me from a psychiatric perspective? If you’re not battling a psychiatric illness, you’re just ayahuasca, curious.

That could also be okay. But please make sure that you’re very, very careful about who you choose. And this is the issue, isn’t it?

I do not have an easy way to tell who’s a reliable guide. This comes back to, oh, I had a friend who did this and had a good experience. So, you know, I think it’s individualized.

I think there is some risk involved, probably less than a lot of the other things we might talk about here. I’m guy who climbs Mount Everest. I wouldn’t do ayahuasca. Sounds crazy.

You have to draw the line in the sand or the jungle as you choose but if you do so, just please have a thoughtful plan about this. I would not do this on the drop of a hat. On a whim. Go south and try ayahuasca.

WORM
00:30:47.050 – 00:30:51.210
Also, I read that some mental health conditions can get worse on ayahuasca.

GERM
00:30:51.210 – 00:30:52.050
Correct.

WORM
00:30:52.050 – 00:31:37.390
So if somebody has anxiety or schizophrenia or psychosis, they probably should avoid ayahuasca. Everything could exacerbate in a foreign setting. I did a little bit of a reading online on this and actually it’s a big industry.

There’s dozens and dozens of ayahuasca retreats. A few things you might look for is, is there access to medical care if you need it? Do they have a safety protocol?

And basically, is there a shaman there? Is there somebody who will guide you through this experience? There’s even a association called the Ayahuasca Safety association, the asa.

And retreats that belong to that association are more likely to to adhere to safety guidelines. So as Paul said, don’t just go down there and take ayahuasca from the first guy you meet.

Do a little research first and that’ll help the odds of a good outcome.

GERM
00:31:37.470 – 00:32:24.300
So that’s great. I hadn’t even heard of the asa, which to me is the medical abbreviation for aspirin. So asa, yet another three letter abbreviation. Love it.

People should check that out. I appreciate that advice, Chris. Everyone, thank you so much for joining us on Germ and Worm.

As always, we welcome your questions on travel, health, animal related or otherwise. Please send them to us along with your tips for success, suggested corrections or clarifications.

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WORM
00:32:24.300 – 00:32:28.020
I’m Worm. It’s a big planet. See it in good health.

GERM
00:32:28.020 – 00:32:47.780
We’ll see you next time.

This podcast is designed to inform, inspire and entertain, but it does not establish a doctor patient relationship and so it should not replace your conversation with a qualified healthcare professional. Please see one before your next adventure.The opinions in this podcast are Dr. Sanford’s and Dr. Pottinger’s alone and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the University of Washington or UW Medicine.